Taken from the Retrospect
The Haddon Township Athletic Association (HTAA) clubhouse has been a long time coming and now a wheelchair lift that does not meet code could stall progress.
Haddon Township construction code official Ed Toussaint confirmed this week that a lift ordered by HTAA has been rejected by the state Department of Community Affairs (DCA) for not meeting building code requirements. In total, the DCA has denied HTAA three times.
HTAA President Bob Davy could not be reached for comment this week.
Toussaint explained the process. When HTAA submitted plans for the clubhouse an elevator shaft was included. Sometime after the groundbreaking in October 2007, HTAA’s architect submitted detailed plans for the elevator shaft to the DCA. Haddon Township’s construction office does not have overview because they do not employ an elevator subcode official.
In October 2008, Toussaint said, Haddon Township’s construction office received written notice that HTAA’s submitted plans for a wheelchair lift had been denied because building codes call for an elevator. HTAA appealed the decision.
In March, the construction office received notice from the DCA of another denial. The same code calling for an elevator, instead of an open wheelchair lift, was cited in the denial plus a new reason. Wheelchair lifts by code are only permitted to travel up to 144 inches; the HTAA lift would travel 160 inches.
At some point, Toussaint said, the builder of the HTAA clubhouse ordered the wheelchair lift. As a result HTAA appealed the DCA decision pleading hardship. On July 20, the DCA denied the hardship appeal.
HTAA then filed an appeal with the Camden County Board of Appeals. On Monday, Toussaint said, the township submitted the necessary paperwork for the board of appeals to review. A hearing date has not been set as of press time.
Toussaint said that light use limited ability (LULA) elevator would be allowed at the clubhouse.
Regarding a temporary certificate of occupancy to allow some use of the clubhouse, particularly the bathrooms, Toussaint is not sure that will be practical. To issue a CO the building should be handicap accessible, which is the chief obstacle the contractors face. Beyond that “there’s an extensive list of items to be done,” he said. From a practical point of view, Toussaint said, getting a temporary CO would mean the clubhouse was essentially ready for a regular CO.
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Twp of Haddon 
So it took a year for the DCA to get back to the HTAA on this? That doesn’t sound quite right.
i dont think it was dca who builds a building with out all the approvals !
Jamie – you are 100% correct. Also, I question the school board and their role in this building as the building is on their property. In the end, it is a township building built hopefully for the next 50 or 100 years’ use of the children, primarily. I definitely would prefer “observation deck” to be properly handicapped accessible in accordance with the state laws. I can tell you that the municipal building has a makeshift ramp and seniors appear to be loath to use it based upon my observations.
What a surprise! A negative comment from Tom. Of course if he ran the project it would of come in ahead of schedule and under budget.
Cassel doesnt show up at any school board meetings but can make a stupid comment even about them. It certainly is not a township building it is the HTAA’s. The township will grant the HTAA anything to get this done for their school board and HTAA buddies.
If a non-profit were building a building on my land, I would clearly be integral to that process. I am currently working on such a scenario where our company is working hand in hand with a government on a parallel situation. In the end, if something happens that HTAA doesn’t properly maintain this building (not a far fetched possibility in light of the construction snafus or the prior history), who is responsible? Can someone answer that?
This building was announced over 2 years ago. It is a simple structure. It should have taken 6 months to build, period. You can build and fit out an entire 20,000 sf office building in 6 months. You can build a normal new house in 3 months. Unfortunately for the anonymous critics, I do understand real estate development way better than most. This is most unfair to the kids. That is for sure.
I didn’t didn’t make a “stupid” comment about the school board. I haven’t heard anything about their role at all. Were they involved in the decision not to put in an elevator that meets code? Who made that decision? When I see Mark Cavallo tonight at the commission meeting, I will ask him.
In the end, it is about getting the building open and giving the kids proper facilities, let us not lose sight of that.
No. In the end it is always about Tom Cassel lobbing bombs at everyone. Please Tom take over everything and show us how to run the world.
At least I put my names on my posts. Are you saying that this construction project has been handled well based upon the current status? I am not the issue as I had little to do with it, but somehow, I always get criticized for stating the obvious. Shoot the messenger!
You admitted that you don’t know what went on behind the scenes but that does not stop you from criticizing the good people that worked long and hard on the project. But of course it is easy to sit at your computer and tell everyone what they should of done. Oh and if I put my name on my post that makes it ok.
Yes, if you put your name on it, then you have more credibility. I know and acknowledge that many people worked hard and long on what will be a great facility for the town’s kids. I just wonder though, how it came to where it is so that in the future, the town can avoid similar situations in the future and learn from past mistakes. If that is criticism, you and I have a fundamental difference in philosophy.
Tom, why don’t you run. You are great, you have all the answers, no matter what the issue, what the subject. Your the best?
This town is awesome. We have a clubhouse which was paid for by private donations for the benefit of the kids with construction problems and all they do is try to bash me for talking about it. You all sound like you come from Fox News Channel.
Does anyone know if the club house will be ready for the kids for the fall? That is the only question that needs to be answered.
You just report, we’ll decide.
As a football Dad I can see Cassel is nothing but trouble for the entire town. Who is this guy? He surely is full of himself and talks in circles. I think he says the opposite of the norm for attention.
What is the norm in Haddon Township?
keep up the questiong. What ever happened to the3 ED position with the Housing Authority. I know a guy with a masters in public administration and much gov’t experience and he didn’t even make it out of the initial group. I guess qualifications don’t matter in the town.
keep up ythe questioing as maybe a reasonable answer as to the failed design can be had. Whil;e your at it, who is the new ED of the Housing Authority. I know a guy that applied and his masters in public administarationand years of govenrment work, ididn’t even get a second interview. I guess that qulifications don’t matter. So we pay for a crapy engineering design for an elevator and we also get a second rate ED?
It is interesting when the anonymous person starts trashing Cassel for having the guts to stand up and post.
I think if Cassel had any errors in his facts Randy and Paul and John would have their squad of supporters making us all aware.
Cassel stands up and states the facts. When challenged he has been proven correct. He appears to be in the process of dealing RandyPaulJohn a solid defeat in the courts regarding their actions.
Cassel stands up at every meeting and asks solid questions and stands behind his comments. He stays after every meeting to talk to people. I have never seen a single one of these anonymous supporters stand up in public, and I have never heard them after the meetings approach Cassel with their challenges. So I guess what we have here is a ‘lone critic” who posts under different names and never goes to the meetings posting to attack Cassel. Or maybe this ‘lone critic’ does go to the meetings but has chosen to slander Cassel on the internet instead of in person. I would consider that cowardly.
I guess when you stand up for what is right and call people on their actions (that cost the taxpayers money) the remaining supporters of RandyJohnPaul will decide to insult you instead of answer the facts.
That’s because the facts are on the side of Cassel. Ignorance, spite, and bullying are all the supporters of RandyJohnPaul appear to have left.
When Cassel’s lawsuit with the town is over – IF he wins and it is resolved in a court of law that he was right all this time – at that time will Randy Teague finally be a leader and stand up and apologize for trying to silence him all these years? I think we all know the answer.
And to answer the anon above: you’re right Cassel would win if he runs. People that normally never vote would come out in droves to support him. He gets great press coverage, is always right, and is a breath of fresh opinon. Cassel for Commissioner. You heard it hear first.
anon Tom is back with a greater ego than ever—the above post is simply Tom Cassel—-he can deny it but what is interesting is no one supports Tom other than anons on this blog (Sawchuk does not count)
I have no plans or intentions to run for anything but appreciate the support.
Relating to the last post, no one supports the commissioners other than the anons also. So the point is?
I have seen many people speak with Cassel after meetings and thank him. He has plenty of support.
How can you not support someone that stands up and asks simple questions? I don’t get it — what has he ever done to you anon? The courts of NJ seem to support him. Only people I’ve seen that don’t appear to support him are Klineburger, Teague, and Dougherty. but seeing as how they are at the center of a legal smackdown buy the courts I can see why they don’t.
Three ‘lawyers’ just got their hats handed to them by Mr. Cassel. Maybe they should hire him as special advisor to one of their many employed attorneys for the town. From what I’ve seen and the papers have reported Cassel seems to be the only one in that group that has a solid grasp on municipal law.
He offered free legal advice to those three lawyers for two years. They laughed him off. Now they are in backroom mediations trying to get out of a lawsuit in which by report Cassel is winning every single point.
Nuff said. Casel hope you do run and can hire us some decent professionals to run the town. If you put a road through Dougherty’s house with eminent domain we’ll build you a statue on Haddon Ave.
How much is Klineburger paid? You should get what you pay for.
Thanks for the comments ANON TOM. You must be getting frustrated with your lack of support after two years of whimpering.
Huh? I didn’t write it. If you know anything, I am not anon.
You must be frustrated that I haven’t stopped going to meetings, participating as a citizen, and encouraging open and clean government. There are people who actually believe that I am a positive influence for the progressing our historically closed and secretive town.
Like him or dislike him Cassel stands up tall at the microphone and has his say. I’ve never seem him whimper.
speaking of whimper… can we get an audio of klineburger’s TESTIMONY in court regarding his actions pertaining to the lawsuit? I want to know if HE whimpered.
Cassel can your attorney use any of Klineburger’s testimony to ask the judge to put Randy or Paul on the stand? Now that I gotta see!!!!
No longer a resident of NJ, however, I do believe you should be able to get a “video” of any court hearing in NJ – I’m just back from a vacation and I’m not “up to date” on the issue of Mr. Cassel’s case, however, I will have to “follow up” and learn – it’s always interesting to see how HT residents still want to “attach” individuals who are “concerned citizens” – I still like to “check up” on the continuing issues of HT, since I left the “out of control” state of NJ.
The HTAA clubhouse – that’s been an interesting story. Question: When this “building” is finally completed, who will be in charge?? School district property, HTAA buildings, HT municipal taxes are involved. Concession stand, that seems, to have had difficulty in the past; and how many years have the same individuals been the officers of the HTAA organization?? It would seem, to me, it will take an “organized” “organization” to run and handle this type of building. However, finally, there will be bathrooms – there are bathrooms on the first level???
Maybe it is time to get the old boys club out of HTAA and audit their books. Maybe check their licenses for selling food. At least the food won’t come out of the back of a truck with no proper accounting. The old one for you 3 for me and I will give you one of my three Bob might stop.
I heard a really funny joke it went like this
“Randy Teague”
Having followed issues in HT when I was a resident – are the residents/citizens/tax payers of HT still able to read the minutes of the HT Commissioners’ meetings and the HT School District meetings on the web site?
it has been alleged the minutes don’t do the meetings justice. auditapes are what are needed. Video is what should be expected.
These characters take our taxpayer dollars to hold these meetings and their salaries but refuse to videotape it so the public can see what goes on.
Now St. Evelyn will jump on now and say if the public wants to know they should go to the meetings. But recall that last year a significant percentage of cacus meetings were switched last minute.
We pay for these meetings with our tax dollars. The meetings should be videotaped, like surrounding towns.
You callin me out?
Crickets
tom must be back from vacation
I am back but I haven’t posted.
Your point is? We shouldn’t have more open government? If Audubon can put their meetings on the web, why can’t our town? What are the commissoners afraid of? Everyone seeing how our town conducts its business?
By the way, two weeks from today we are back in court to hopefully finalize the lawsuit.
my point tom is that you were the anon poster–but you knew that
while tom is on vacation–no posts. tom comes back and we have anon posts that say everything tom says about the meetings. this happenned last year too when tom went away.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I don’t post anonymously. I had my laptop with me so your theory is just plain silly. There are obviously others who share my view.
Do you see any reason that we shouldn’t be videotaping the meetings with the equipment already owned and posting it on the website paid for already with tax dollars? There is little if no cost to us.
Quick comment – they always try to make it about me. They don’t address the issues. I am just a citizen who wants open government. I go to meetings. I am not anonymous in any way. When those who criticize me here start posting with their names, maybe they will have an ounce of credibility.
please stop talking about me, I mean Tom, I mean anon Tom—-Sybil is that you?
Again, its always about me, not the real issues. You post anonymously or under multiple names, Cybil. I don’t.
Ignore them Cassel.
I agree with Tom that meetings should be taped.
Just checked the website — minutes there are from June — over 2 months ago, and they don’t have much detail.
From what I’ve read in the Retrospect, Courier Post, Haddon Herald, and on these blogs I can see why Mayor Teague and Commissioner Dougherty are embarassed to have their actions videotaped. But since they arent embarassed to act that way on our taxpayer dollar we should get to watch it too.
I hope the next administration will pledge to be more open to the public. Audubon is great example of good people taking back control of the town for the people.
Randy, Paul, and John seemed like a good idea when they ran on a platform of clean government and professionalism. But they didn’t deliver what they promised and it’s a disappointment for all of us that voted for them.
thanks anon tom
I don’t post anonymously. I have no reason other than to post with my name.
You must be really, I mean REALLY, frustrated that there are others who agree with me. That is why you continue to try to bend the truth and make me the issue. And the truth is that we as a town deserve to have full open government. No secret meetings. Meetings available on demand on the internet using the equipment our town already owns and actually making an employee of our town making video the meeting that they are already attending.
This kind of reminds me of a meeting over a year ago when the Commissioner Dougherty stated that they should take more control of Channel 19 to the detriment of one citizen who was filming various events. The commissioners made the decision that it wasn’t public access any more, that they should approve all broadcasts. I ask everyone to look at the Channel 19 schedule.
Click to access MaySept09ht19.pdf
Since July 19th, the only thing that they have been playing is the HTHS graduation. Since then we have had 4 commission meetings. Don’t you think that if we are paying to have access to Channel 19, perhaps we should put something relevant to the town up? We have plenty of air time to fill. In fact, other than the 4th of July Parade, everything else relates to HTHS activities since May. We as a town should do more. And quite frankly, the events they put on Channel 19th should also be put on Youtube with links to the website so that they are on demand.
Our town has lots of events that could be filmed and broadcast. Let’s compare this to our neighboring town of Collingswood….
Look at all the videos they have posted online.
http://www.collingswood.com/community-network/video-gallery
And look at their TV schedule….
Click to access 8_20to8_30.pdf
They have about 10 different things that they are highlighting on TV. You see Commissioner Dougherty, when you involve the community, as Collingswood does, by having a community section of your website, for and by the community , you create an environment of inclusion. They even have their very own TV series now. WOW.
And here is the link to Audubon’s website where they post their commission meetings…
http://www.boroughofaudubon.com/Video.html
Both of these towns are progressive in their use of the internet and Channel 19.
thanks Tom you have confirmed you are both anon tom and tom—very progressive
Why do you insist that Tom posts as anon? I’m sure you won’t believe me but the fact is…he is about the only one who uses his name for EVERY post.
You of all people…. anon, J. Hensel, Tom Giordano and a couple of other names that you have posted under should be the last to comment on that subject.
thank god the dynamic duo are back
Jen, how do you know who is posting under what name or anon?
Collingswood does not tape their meetings and maley doesn’t even have a caucus meeting. If our comm. taped the fluff that maely shows Tom would be all over them. There is no substance to the Colls videos.
Tom, if this is true, how can you call Collingswood progressive when they only have ONE meeting a month a NO caucus meeting? So what if they tape around town.
Tom, if this is true, how can you call Collingswood progressive? They have only ONE meeting a month and NO caucus meeting? So what if they put videos from around town on the internet. Their tax increase surely wasn’t progressive.
I called it progressive in its use of the internet to present videos of community activitiesand giving community access. I also cited Audubon where they do video and show the meetings on the internet. This is a discussion about the internet, not the whole governments of those towns. Rant on!
thanks. tom was called on the carpet and he does not do carpets—way to back down tomcat
That’s actually quite funny. You are just twisting the words like a lawyer. It is really hard to argue something when you don’t bother with the facts. Its an old political trick. Sorry, but you have now been called on the carpet, not me.
Maybe if you actually focused on the issues of OUR town, we could have a meaningful discussion.
tomcat does not do carpets….lol
tommy you are not part of this town, I heard Charlie Dan and Bobby have pulled up your tents……and you were almost excited
The antics of the ‘lone supporter’ of dougherty and gang are amazing.
Cassel has a point — no reason not to video the meeting like the other towns.
Are the commisioners and their lone supporter against using 1990s technology so that everyone can have access to open government?
Are the commioners and their lone supporter saying that the current website that only has minutes from last JUNE is good communication?
Are the commisioners and their lone supporter saying this is what they pledged to do with our government when I voted for them?
Can’t we agree that open communication is best for all of us? We have established that it won’t cost a dime to video the meetings since we have township employees just sitting at them. Set up a camera and push the button. When done transfer file to computer. Then upload. My 7th grader could do it for free if you want.
What in the world does this have to do with Cassel?
Lets reflect on the votes from last election. None of the current commisioners got an overwhelming percentage of the registered voters… Now are the commissioners and their lone supporter trying to claim that the only person in the town that does not agree with them is Cassel? Get over yourselves.
How about you do what we elected you to do : professionalsm, rise above the Bill Park antics, and a new attitude in Haddon Township. Audubon just voted for that and they got open government, meetings on the internet, and respectful attitudes at the meetings.
Don’t we deserve open government, professional leadership, and the common decency to accomodate the requests of those that can’t make the meeting times?
How about you guys stop fighting with your imaginary enemies and internet boogeymen and start doing what politicians do : meet some of the requests of your consituents. If folks asking to video a public meeting like other towns puts you in this much of a tizzy you guys really are in over your heads as commissioners. With all that is going on this is the new battle? Please. Video the meetings, and let’s work on lowering our taxes, finishing DyDee, fixing the sewer systems, alleviate the flooding, get the poolhouse issue resolved, iron out the Fieldstone stuff, and get to moving the town forward already!
If anon Tom did not post the above it is someone who is clueless. If you wish to address the Mayor and Commissioners this is not and has never been the forum. Call them, go to meeting, email them (but you won’t because you are anon Tom or surely not someone who voted for them last time) . Nice attempt anyway Tom!
I didn’t post it, Cybil. Don’t you remember that I post with my name. Jen did call you out on this since you are the one who is screenname challenged.
So why won’t you address videotaping the meetings and putting them on the web for all to see?
To: anon (J. Hensel, Tom Giordano )
This is getting very old. Tom does not post anon unlike you of many names. I’d like to keep this open and let “all” post opinions and facts, however, if you continue to use this as the basis of your comments I will delete them and then unfortunately you will be blocked from making any “intelligent” comments.
I have said that I will block comments that are repeated. You chose to do this but with a little variety to each comment.
I guess Tom complained to you Jen that open blogs are not part of his open government campaign.
Tom didn’t need to complain. I got tired of reading the same accusations. They are false. As I said it was getting old.
Now will the real J. Hensel please step forward.
I’m not sure, but I thought this post was about the HTAA building?
It starts out that way but certain people try to change the subject. Unfortunately, it happens every time. Obviously I get sucked in to the diversion but try to stay on subject. I do apologize to the readers actually looking for information.
Post a new one JS………this one is played out.
I was not able to attend the meeting so I’m hoping the Retrospect has some info I will be able to post. Always open to subjects for posting.
that says it all Sawchuk…apology accepted
Believe me that was not directed to you as I’m sure you know. It would help if you had some actual information to share.
Just checked back and am disappointed that although they took the time to throw more mud at everyone the anonymous person(s) who appear to represent the commissioners couldn’t take the time to answer any of my questions.
I can’t attending the meetings for similar reasons as many other working people in town with children.
I appreciate the efforts of Sawchuk to spread the word.
Why must everything turn into a battle?
Please video the meetings like Audubon or at least update the website weekly. You could at least put the audio file from the meeting on the website. Thanks.
I have emailed as you suggested and never heard back. I have left phone messages and never heard back. So I guess this blog is a good thing after all. Other than voting differently next time what else can we do to be heard by the commisioners? I pay my taxes on time, why can’t I get a return email or phone call?
how may meetings have been posted by Audubon?
By Collingswoood?
By the way if there was any truth to the above post I am sure you or Tom (unles you are the same person) would be more than happy to call the Mayor on the carpet at a meeting (but you didn’t call or email the Mayor, right?).
I think Audubon has been posting for a couple of months when they revamped their website. They are the only town around here that posts them because all the old guys were voted out in a landslide earlier this year. The mayor is pretty good about calling me back.
I have no interest in joining you guys in these fights.
I just shared my story and it is similar to other folks
I have placed phone calls and emails and not received a response. Not recently but some time ago. Just my experience but I’m bet I’m not the only one.
So now you’re going to claim my story isn’t real and I’m Cassel?
Please. With all the work this town needs can’t you guys get to work doing what we elected you to do and stop attacking your own constituents? I wish I could go back in time and change my vote. This is not what you guys promised us.
Amazing look what I found at our neighboring township
http://www.boroughofaudubon.com/Video.html
how bout them apples?
Maybe if Randy asks nicely the Mayor of Audubon can let our town use the webcode.
So its obvious the technology is there and it is easy to do.
So whats the real reason Paul and Randy dont want the meetings for all to see?
So the answer is 1 for Audubon and 0 by Collingswood.
How about the Audubon Video…..Sicliano spent more time on his phone texting than Klineburger, NO PUBLIC COMMENT permitted, and NO MOTION WAS MADE TO GO INTO EXECUTIVE SESSION OR TO END THE MEETING
Be carfule what you ask for before claiming Audubon as an open government leader
How about those apples, actually just the facts
Nice try. Audubon just started videotaping an they have it up and running now. They were just elected.
I have no doubt from here forward every meeting on the web. Actually I think past meetings were on web too – they may not be archived.
At the end of video multiple people stood up and walked by camera. They were probably public.
Anyhow, the point is they videotaped their meeting and put it up there for all to see. That is why you were able to criticize it.
No reason are town can’t do the same. but for some reason Paul and Randy apparently don’t want everyone to see what goes on at the meetings.
Glad you took the time to watch the audubon video. Wasn’t it nice to be able to see the facts and make up your one opinion? Don’t see why you feel need to trash Audubon unless you feel threatened by the idea of new guys coming in, cleaning house, and returning the town back to the people.
Just read the post by Cassel.
Thank goodness Audubon had the video on the web to show that what you wrote abou another town’s open government was FALSE. You’re so lazy you didn’t evidently didn’t even bother to watch the whole video before you threw your lies at them.
Come on this isn’t what we elected you guys for!!!
At least do a better job of throwing mud at the clean people.
Quick go ask Paul and Randy how to get out of this mess you just stepped in.
Did you attend the Audubon meeting to be able to make those comments? I doubt it. So by them posting the meeting on the web, you were able to view it and give your comments and thoughts without actually attending. Isn’t that the whole point? Open, accessible and tranparent government?
So why does Klineburger text during meetings (you post says he does)? Just so you know the pending bill to amend the OPMA would actually make that a violation. The problem with texting during a meeting is that at an open meeting, all the communications should be open, not made in secret. We don’t know if someone who is texting is texting one of the others in the meeting.
Relating to no public comment, the OPMA requires open comments. I watched one of the earlier meetings from Audubon, and the one I watched had 2 public comment sessions, one at the beginning, and one at the end. I just watched the beginning of this one and at the beginning they had a public comment session at about 1:30, so for you to say what you said, is absolutely false. So why doesn’t our town have a public session at the beginning of the meeting as well as the end of the meeting?
Relating to executive sessions, our town didn’t go into executive session regularly until I filed the lawsuit and challenged you, I mean, them. Now that I filed the lawsuit, they are regularly going into executive session. So I believe that our town is finally having proper executive sessions. I have openly questionly whether they did do it properly during the first year of their tenure because there were so few executive sessions. The town’s attorney even stated that they violated the executive session on 2/3/09 in his response to the court of my challenge of this.
So to summarize, we are finally having seemingly proper executive sessions as a result of a citizen (me) demanding it, we would be better having two public comment sessions at each meeting, at the beginning and the end, and if we videoed our meetings and put it on the township website, any citizen could at their leisure see the inner workings of our government just as you have done. Thanks for your insight. And by the way, why do you oppose doing the video?
By the way, here is a great article about OPMA from the Star Ledger blog today.
http://blog.nj.com/njv_guest_blog/2009/09/opra_dark_clouds_passing_under.html
Thanks for update Cassel. I didn’t realize that Klineburger stated they violated the rules on executive session on 2/3/09. Good thing he had to answer under oath to your attorney!!!
How much longer do we the taxpayers have to pay for this mistake of a solicitor? Do you think Randy and Paul just keep him around because he was a major campaign contributer? No wonder they don’t want to video the meetings!!!!!!
Hey Tom I was right about one and zero….but you are a hack about the three guys you have failed to call out after two years. God bless if you can call anyone out but you cant and you try every two weeks. Did Audubon violate any OPMA?
I hope Cassel is checking this blog tonight to see this.
Quick call Paul (if he isn’t sitting next to you) and explain this:
http://audubontalks.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=3386
That page gives links to numerous Audubon meetings since the new open government took over.
June 16, July 27, and July 21 posted right there by Bill Gannon himself.
So you sir are a blatent teller of UnTRUTHS (a lot of us in town call them Randy Teaguisms now!)
How bout instead of trashing audubon with untruths you guys do what we elected you to do and give us good open clean government? Oh and pretty please video the meetings i for one promise not to make fun of how paul looks on the videos.
To clarify, it wasn’t Klineburger who said that about the 2/3 meeting, it was Baxter, the special counsel who stated it was a violation in his legal response. He is the township attorney in this matter.
It isn’t about “calling out” the commissioners. It is about clean and open government. The fact that you and you sycophants write these lies on the blog without any reasons for not videoing demonstrates to all of us, your true feelings on open government, in my opinion.
I think Randy Teague showed his true feelings on open government when he screamed that a citizen was out of order and asked the chief of police to remove them from the meeting.
For… trying to read a letter to the editor during the public comment portion of the meeting.
No wonder they don’t want their actions taped. they must be embarassed of themselves.
LOOKED AT AUDUBON WEBSITE. GOOD STUFF. REFRESHING TO SEE GOVERNMENT THAT ISNT TRYING TO HIDE IN THE SHADOWS.
As anyone heard about the lawsuit Audubon supposedly filed regarding the police deal between Audubon Park and Haddon Township?
Looks like wherever Randy and Paul go lawsuit trouble follows.
Good going guys. What happened to “where community thrives?”
We elected you guys to build bridges, not burn them.
What a mess!!!
I know it’s not relevant in this Brigadoon of blog, but might you have some evidence?
Sure St. Evelyn no problem
In August Audbon filed an emergency injunction in Superior Court against Audubon Park.
On or around August 27.
Of course you knew this because it was published in The Retrospect.
http://www.theretrospect.com/default.asp?sourceid=&smenu=1&twindow=&mad=&sdetail=2002&wpage=1&skeyword=&sidate=&ccat=&ccatm=&restate=&restatus=&reoption=&retype=&repmin=&repmax=&rebed=&rebath=&subname=&pform=&sc=1155&hn=theretrospect&he=.com
The emergency injuction was not approved but the case removes active and is moving forward.
A key issue in the lawsuit is Haddon Township’s inabiility to respond appropriately.
Another fine pile of mess stepped into by Paul Dougherty. Thanks again for not looking before you leaped Paul!
“Of course you knew this because it was published in The Retrospect.”… No, I did not know, because I did not read it.
After reading the article you so graciously provided, i re-read it because I could not see where it was written, “The emergency injunction was not approved…” That’s because it was not written. What was written?
“The court ruled in favor of Audubon Park, allowing the interlocal services agreements for police protection and the courts to change hands as planned, on September 1. ”
Your version ;leaves the reader with a sense that Audobon just missed a minimum threshhold but there’s still a chance… The truth is, they lost. But as I originally wrote this is the Brigadoon of blogs where reality is suspended.
You continue to write, “A key issue in the lawsuit is Haddon Township’s inabiility to respond appropriately.” No, it’s not a key issue ot the lawsuit… it’s an element of an affidavit (or someone’s statement)… it’s not a fact… but again, we’re in the Brigadoon of blogs where facts or the lack of, really doesn’t matter.
The key issue appears later in the article when Audobon’s mayor acknowledges the purpose of the lawsuit is to recover the contract and THE MONEY!
A “fine pile of mess”? Hmmm, lets see. Audobon Park gets services at a lower cost and HT gains revenue and Audobon has sour grapes…. I guess if I were in Brigadoon I’d see it as a mess too.
Don’t let the facts get in your way St. Evelyn.
Yes, Audubon did seek an emegency injunction. I quote from the article:
“A lawsuit filed by the Borough of Audubon against the Borough of Audubon Park last Thursday, August 27, asked the court for an emergency hold on changes in interlocal police protection and municipal court services to Audubon Park. ”
And yes, the lawsuit is still active. Again from the article
“the case is still an active case with affidavits filed by the courts and Audubon Police Chief Tom Tassi, addressing concerns for compromised public safety due to Haddon Township’s inability to respond appropriately across the White Horse Pike and Nicholson Roads. ”
You see St. Evelyn, the emergency injuction was not granted, but the lawsuit is STILL ACTIVE with respect to compromised public safety issues.
Dougherty is the commissioner in charge of ‘public safety’ so it is a fine mess he has stepped in.
Don’t let the facts keep you from arguing St. Evelyn!
This lawsuit has as much to do with public safety as your posts have to do with the truth.
It’s about money and that’s it.
Audobon Park wants to save some and Audobon doesn’t want to lose it.
you can maje up wharever you want st. e
but here on planet earth i will stick with the facts.
newspaper quoted audubon officials regarding their position. Now you post saying you know more about their reasons than they do?
You are too much.
Since you are so knowledgable you must also know that if it is ‘all about money’ that is a problem too. You see, it is alleged that the agreement between audubon and audubon park has a clause that if the dispute was purely financial it had to go to arbitration. But since you know what Audubon is secretly thinking behind the scenes you must be aware of that.
Jumping feet first into an agreement that is on contested legal ground (and spening taxpayer dollars to construct a police ‘substation’) is not what we voted these professional to do.
Randy got his photo op in the paper at the Audobon Park Ceremony just like his photo op at DyDee. If he had spent more time doing his due diligence and less time sheduling his photography sessions we might have a dime or two to save the taxpayers.
“Audubon MAYOR John Ward reserved comment, but AGREED when asked if litigation was a sign that Audubon was still trying to recover the lost revenue and contract”
That’s the second paragraph from the bottom of the article YOU referenced… It’s about money. The mayor and Siciliano confirmed it’s about the money.
“…it is alleged that the agreement between audubon and audubon park has a clause that if the dispute was purely financial it had to go to arbitration. But since you know what Audubon is secretly thinking behind the scenes you must be aware of that.”
I don’t know what the agreement said. Neither do you. I don’t know what they’re secretly thinking… but their quote in the paper says IT’S ABOUT THE MONEY.
“Jumping feet first into an agreement that is on contested legal ground (and spening taxpayer dollars to construct a police ’substation’) is not what we voted these professional to do.”
First, I don’t believe for a second you voted for any of the commissioners. Second, no one jumped feet first. Audobon Park raised their hand and requested quotes. Third, “Contested legal ground”? Hey, Perry, what the he!! are you talkin about? This isn’t the Dred Scott Decision.
“Randy got his photo op in the paper at the Audobon Park Ceremony just like his photo op at DyDee. If he had spent more time doing his due diligence and less time sheduling his photography sessions we might have a dime or two to save the taxpayers.”
This is what it all boils down to, isn’t Anon? It galls you that these guys won. It pains you to see their pictures in the paper. It drives you up a wall to see them sit behind that big desk. When they speak at public events, you curl into a fetal position and scream. You can’t sleep knowing they won and you count days, nay, the MINUTES until the next election. Well, pal, they worked a deal with Audobon Park that raised revenues enough to cut your tax rate, so take your savings, buy a drink and calm down. Of course, according to you there’s not enough tax savings for you to get drunk, so I guess we’re all safe.
St E. you should ge a medal for your support of Randy and Gang. Maybe he can make you a sheriff and you can help them keep the pesky public in line at the meetings?
You can seletively quote the article all you want.
The point is that the Audubon Park issue is now before a court. The article clearly states that some of the issues that remain active in the lawsuit are due to public safety. You can put your hands over your head and say you can’t hear me, but if you want to argue with Audubon about what they said, you should take it up with them or the reporter. I prefer we stick to the facts, not what you think people secretly mean in that little head of yours.
Burning bridges with neighboring townships is no way to build community. The police deal may well be a great thing for audubon park and our town. It just appears to have been conducted in a shoddy, unprofessional manner that is in now headed to court. If there is an arbitration clause then these fine professionals of ours have really stepped in it with taxpayer dollars.
You say they are saving us money? From what I see they have been passing pay raises consistently while many of us taking pay cuts or worse. Fees have been raised that allegedly offset any tax savings. Oh and that 3 million they now want to bond to aquire more property for DyDee — I guess you just want to forgetaboutit. They are saving us money like a screen door on a submarine saves heating bills.
I have no problem with Randy and Paul gettting pictures taken. I just find it ironic that they have a habit of photo-op first, clean up the mess later. If they are so in favor of photos why can’t we have videos at the meetings? You see St. E, you aren’t too quick to correct the teaguisms (i mean untruths) that you and your anon buddies posted trashing the people that wanted the meetings taped (see the eggs you guys deposited a few posts up)
You just come out of the woodwork to attack and scream and disrupt any discussion that dares to ask if maybe this town deserves better. As I recall, you first burst onto the scene to defend Klineburger over the lawsuit debacle your boys got us into regarding their secret meetings and backroom gatherings (stuff that happens in secret government when you can’t video meetings or properly publish when they will happen) At that time St. E., you claimed to be a wayward internet sould from New Zealand who had stumbled here and was outraged about the claims made against Klineburger.
Now that it appears the courts are going to rule that the claims against Klineburger and gang were valid and true you have switched horses.
St. E., you first claimed to be from New Zealand. Where are you from? Are you even from our town? If you’re from our town how about you come onboard and start being constructive to make it better?
Oh and you’d be amazed how many people that voted for Randy and Paul are disappointed. I won’t be voting for them next time simply because they did not deliver what they promised. Clean, professional government, and a stop to all these lawsuits. They delivered a big zero on that, and I won’t be voting for them next time. This town deserves better — what we got was more Bill Park tricks and the politics of division.
“St E. you should ge a medal for your support of Randy and Gang. Maybe he can make you a sheriff and you can help them keep the pesky public in line at the meetings?”
You should get the purple heart for the shots you’re taking. I’m not writing in support of commissioners. You misrepresented the newspaper article to make it seem HT was responsible for a dispute between two towns. That was a lie and that you perpetuate the lie makes you a liar.
“You can seletively quote the article all you want.
The point is that the Audubon Park issue is now before a court.”
You took a description of an affadavit prepared by an employee of Audobon and referenced by Siciliano and presented that description as a quote. It wasn’t a quote. The quote I referenced was a quote as evinced by the quotation marks. And the point of the article is Audobon does want to give up the money.
“Burning bridges with neighboring townships is no way to build community.”
Saving money for Audobon Park is burning a bridge? I don’t think so.
“It just appears to have been conducted in a shoddy, unprofessional manner that is in now headed to court. If there is an arbitration clause then these fine professionals of ours have really stepped in it with taxpayer dollars.”
If HT answered an RFP prepared by Audobon Park then the obligation to be in compliance with contracts is on Audobon Park, not the surrounding communities.
“You say they are saving us money?” No, I said they cut your tax rate.
“I have no problem with Randy and Paul gettting pictures taken”… BS… You itch like a little school girl every time they appear in print. And Photo-Op? Please. A photographer that shows up with a reporter covering a story is not a photo op.
“If they are so in favor of photos why can’t we have videos at the meetings?” I’ve never read a statement or quote from any of them that said or alluded to thier desire to be photographed. You just make this crap up.
“You see St. E, you aren’t too quick to correct the teaguisms (i mean untruths) that you and your anon buddies posted trashing the people that wanted the meetings taped (see the eggs you guys deposited a few posts up)”
I don’t know what the he!! you’re talking about. I have no “buddies” on the blog… I work alone. As for video? I don’t care. Tape it, don’t tape it. It seems crazy you want it taped. First, you’re not happy with how they run meetings now. Why would you want to make it more complicated? Oh, that’s right, it’d be another opportunity to maybe screw up and you could take them to court and allege a conspiracy because the forgot to remove the cap from the lens. Second, video doesn’t bring people in to the meetings. I’d skip the video and offer hot dogs and soda to people who come to meetings or offer extra credit to HS students who attend. Something to bring them out, not keep them home.
“You just come out of the woodwork to attack and scream and disrupt any discussion that dares to ask if maybe this town deserves better”
Your post, that started this string did NOTHING about making HT better. It was gutter sniping. Plain and simple. That’s what I respond to. I did not opine on video taping because it was a dicussion of an idea. I respond when you attack people for no good reason.
“As I recall, you first burst onto the scene to defend Klineburger over the lawsuit debacle your boys got us into regarding their secret meetings and backroom gatherings (stuff that happens in secret government when you can’t video meetings or properly publish when they will happen)”
More evidence you just make crap up. My first post had to do with a Shore community complaining HT hired their police officiers. But when does the truth ever matter to you?
“At that time St. E., you claimed to be a wayward internet sould from New Zealand who had stumbled here and was outraged about the claims made against Klineburger.”
What does that have to do with anything?
“Now that it appears the courts are going to rule that the claims against Klineburger and gang were valid and true you have switched horses”
Does it appear that way? I’ve not seen anything in the paper and the ONLY analysis offered comes from the guy who filed the complaint but refuses to post it on the blog for all to debate… What’s he afraid of? If you have a copy, why don’t you post it and defend it? Why? because outside a cadre of sychophants, nobody cares. And as for switching horses? I don’t what you’re talking about.
“St. E., you first claimed to be from New Zealand. Where are you from? Are you even from our town?”
Typical. You can’t make argument, so attack the messenger.
“I won’t be voting for them next time ”
You didn’t vote for them the first time.
St Evelyn has now moved to its best trick
twisting words and trying to tell people what they really meant and then arguing with the words St. E puts in their mouths.
Now you are calling people liars? Big of you. Problem is that anonymous did not write what you claim.
Anonymous pointed out that the agreement between Haddon Township and Audubon Park is now the subject of what is described in the paper as a lawsuit.
The courts will have their say, but if what Audubon alleges is correct then the Haddon Township boys jumped fist into something without first doing their due diligence on behalf of the taxpayers.
You see, St.Evelyn, if we spend taxpayer dollars to build substations and then it is found that Audubon Park was not in a position to enter the contract and we don’t get paid then we the taxpayers are left holding the bag.
Now you will start screaming that anonymous is attacking and throwing mud. But that is what you always do because your one trick pony no longer amuses. Go back and read your old posts — you just disrupt, and lie. You claimed to be from New Zealand in the past, then admitted it was a lie. Your sole goal is to try to smear the citizens that dare to ask for better.
We deserve better.
Instead of smearing people and saying ‘oh you never voted for Randy so who cares’ maybe you should bring something to the table. Do you even live here?
We live here. And I won’t be voting for Teague and Dougherty again because they did not deliver what they promises. Go suck you thumb, rock yourself, and tell yourself that’s its just a few of us. We’ll see in approx. 2 years.
But for the time being yes we do have a right to ask questions. so sorry you are upset by it. you sound like the kind of person that would have the police sit down the public at meetings…
“St Evelyn has now moved to its best trick twisting words and trying to tell people what they really meant and then arguing with the words St. E puts in their mouths.”
It would be nice if you could provide an example, but I understand, it’s Brigadoon and you don’t have to.
“Now you are calling people liars?”
No. I called the anonymous poster who perpetuates a lie a liar. To say “people” implies I called more than one person a liar which I did not do.
“Big of you. Problem is that anonymous did not write what you claim.”
OK… this is were you copy and paste your evidence
“Anonymous pointed out that the agreement between Haddon Township and Audubon Park is now the subject of what is described in the paper as a lawsuit.”
OK… I’m with ya so far.
“The courts will have their say, but if what Audubon alleges is correct then the Haddon Township boys jumped fist into something without first doing their due diligence on behalf of the taxpayers.”
OK… #1, That’s a big “if” unless you’ve read the agreement. I haven’t. I don’t believe you have either. And let’s say for the sake of argument, it is there and it’s valid. What “wrong” did HT commit? None. Audobon Park prepared the request. It’s their obligation to be in compliance with their contracts. It’s not HT’s responsibility or any other community to investigate another communities contracts and opine if they’re fullfilling their minimum obligations before answering a request for proposal.
“You see, St.Evelyn, if we spend taxpayer dollars to build substations and then it is found that Audubon Park was not in a position to enter the contract and we don’t get paid then we the taxpayers are left holding the bag.”
If HT spent money on a substation that ultimately was useless because of Audobon Park error, I’d think there would be grounds to recover. I don’t think it will happen but you can hope if you want and continue to dream your dreams of what I’m really like.
4 corners of the contract St. Evelyn.
Ask Randy and Paul what that means if you want to pretend not to understand.
We expect 2 people that ran as ‘professionals’ with their high-brown law degrees to understand the basic idea of contract law before jumping into one.
you still haven’t shown what the big ‘lie’ was that you allege. so now you are libeling people? Hope you can substantiate calling people liars on this third party publication bud. better call randy and paul. fast.
St. Evelyn never let the facts stop him/her from defending randy and paul and throwing mud at cassel.
No doubt he/she will find some way to lay dougherty’s egg on the feet of another.
St. Evelyn = Randy Puppet
Randy and Paul were not defended. Only your errors were bought to light.
The only mud throwing came from you… Now go wash your hands.
the mayor and commissioners getting the job done. they dont have to argue all day at meetings with you. you dont like it move. they moving town forward. all aboard or get off the bus.
No one talks about the fact the $380,000 in fees will come to Haddon Twp. I am all about saving tax payers money and cutting municipal government. The Mayor of Audubon Park made the decision for his town, our police have to patrol the Heights and Extension. I have no idea what Audubon has to do with Haddon Twp. It looks like Haddon Twp. just cut the better deal, which happens in business every day. As a resident of the Heights, I am thrilled! The Audubon police have been ticketing us for years! Haddon Twp. gets revenue and we get police presence, something we never got from Mayor Park and his croonies (Joe Gallager),
St. Eve said “As for video? I don’t care. Tape it, don’t tape it. It seems crazy you want it taped. First, you’re not happy with how they run meetings now. Why would you want to make it more complicated? Oh, that’s right, it’d be another opportunity to maybe screw up and you could take them to court and allege a conspiracy because the forgot to remove the cap from the lens. Second, video doesn’t bring people in to the meetings. I’d skip the video and offer hot dogs and soda to people who come to meetings or offer extra credit to HS students who attend. Something to bring them out, not keep them home.”
Come on. More complicated? Conspiracy? That is just plain silly.
BTW, no food is allowed in the commission meeting room, but I doubt you know that because you have never made a comment even indicating that you attended. But you make the comments anyway.
Relating to HS students, I have seen several attend in connection with their school projects over the past couple of years. Not many, but some. I would encourage that also and agree with that statement although I don’t think extra credit is the answer. I got interested in politics as a junior high school student and believe that if you get students involved earlier, they will be more interested and involved later.
Maybe if there are videos on the web, people would be able to see the value of attending meetings and more would in fact attend. But you make another illogical and silly statement.
Videoing the meetings and posting them on the web is just a open government “best practice” for the 21st century. Your lame and silly excuses are indicative of why people in this town are uninformed and you may want to include yourself in that category.
I will in fact publish all of the papers in my case once it is finalized. I see no reason to “try” it in the blogs. That is what a judge is for. I will publish it on the NJFOG website which is the citizen advocacy group for open government for the ENTIRE STATE, not just our town to see. You see, these issues are about clean and open government which is a very serious issue.
Dont waste your time even engaging St. Evelyn.
St. Evelyn is doing what it has done since it first crawled onto the blog (at that time claiming to be somone in New Zealand who was upset about the accusations against Klineburger)
The old Park administration trick was to smear and attack any critic. If you spoke out, you were ridiculed or smeared.
As people involved in the town know, these blogs are read because they are the sole source of open discussion on the town. The minutes of meetings are not posted until months later, meetings are poorly attended, and if a person stands to ask a question at the meeting they are verbally attacked by our short-fused mayor and his left-hand man Dougherty.
We had a meeting where the mayor asked the police to remove a citizen that wanted to read a letter to the editor (that letter was published in Retrospect) during his 5 minutes of free speech time.
My belief based on the actions of St. Evelyn is that it is is either one of the commissioners or a person working on their behalf to try to silence or disrupt criticism of their administration.
St. Evelyn toes the Randy Teague line perfectly, and never misses a chance to try to paint any critic as a Kook. Textbook Teague-Park.
Hello Randy and Paul, welcome to the blog. Maybe you could join the discussion in a more productive manner in the future? It would be nice if we could have these discussions at the meetings, but since you have decided that can’t happen maybe this will have to do for now.
“Come on. More complicated? Conspiracy? That is just plain silly.”
Is it? You file a complaint because they’re not meeting their minimum obligation and before a decision about the complaint is issued, you want them to go beyond their minimum requirement and do more.
“BTW, no food is allowed in the commission meeting room, but I doubt you know that because you have never made a comment even indicating that you attended. But you make the comments anyway.”
Hmm… Lets see now. If I don’t attend meetings, I shouldn’t make comments. You want video tape so people can watch from home… and not attend meetings… Should they not comment since they won’t attend? Hmm? What difference does it make if i attend meetings or I read minutes? How I get informed is my business. I may be at meeting… I just don’t beat my chest to draw attention to myself.
BTW… I know food is not allowed, just like video taping is not allowed. Since you want to change one rule, I thought I’d offer my own rule change. Your rule change encourages people to stay home, mine brings them out.
I offered extra credit as an idea… You got a better idea? Fine
If you want to video tape the meetings, fine, I don’t care. Some people will watch because it’s a novelty but when the novelty wears off it’ll be as useless as the quarterly updates you cited in another string.
“Your lame and silly excuses are indicative of why people in this town are uninformed and you may want to include yourself in that category.”
If people are uninformed, it’s their choice. It’s not because they don’t have enough avenues to learn and videotaping is not going to raise awareness.
“I will in fact publish all of the papers in my case once it is finalized. I see no reason to “try” it in the blogs.”
Publish, don’t publish. Nobody cares. If you had any stones you would have posted it and taken the heat. You either have no case or it is of such trivial consequence you had the good sense not to post it.
St Evelyn doensn’t want the meetings taped (like they are in many other towns) because then people could actually watch what happened.
Most working folks with kids can’t make the meetings, especially the 4pm caucus meetings (which close to 1/3-1/2 of last years were).
As Audubon has shown, it is simple to make everything open and transparent.
But that isn’t what St. Evelyn wants. St.Evelyn wants to just attack Cassel and any other person that dares to expect better.
St. Evelyn is a bad joke that has worn off.
I wrote, “As for video? I don’t care. Tape it, don’t tape it.”
You wrote, “St Evelyn doensn’t want the meetings taped…”
Seriously… you fell from the stupid tree and hit every branch on the way down.
thanks again St. Evelyn for demonstrating what a silly fool you are. Here is what you wrote :
“It seems crazy you want it taped. First, you’re not happy with how they run meetings now. Why would you want to make it more complicated? Oh, that’s right, it’d be another opportunity to maybe screw up and you could take them to court and allege a conspiracy because the forgot to remove the cap from the lens. Second, video doesn’t bring people in to the meetings. I’d skip the video”
The key words — you wrote “I’ DSKIP THE VIDEO” at then end of your rant about why you think they shouldnt be taped because of some imaginary conspiracy to take them to court. your own words
St. Evelyn/Randy/Paul/whoever you are — your one-trick pony is tired. You can’t put words in the mouths of the critics and then have both sides of the argument.
How about joining the conversation constructively.
Do you even live in our town? before you claimed to be from New Zealand. You’re a bad joke.
notice that St. Evelyn tried to deny being against the videotapings and called anonymous a liar.
Then St. Evelyn’s own post showing it is produced and St. Evelyn moves back to attacking everyone.
So transparent St. E — you have as much substance as cotton candy. don’t you havea town to run?
I see you’ve stood up, dusted yourself off and climbed right back to the top of the Stupid Tree only to fall out and hit every single branch again.
{thanks again St. Evelyn for demonstrating what a silly fool you are. Here is what you wrote :
“It seems crazy you want it taped. First, you’re not happy with how they run meetings now. Why would you want to make it more complicated? Oh, that’s right, it’d be another opportunity to maybe screw up and you could take them to court and allege a conspiracy because the forgot to remove the cap from the lens. Second, video doesn’t bring people in to the meetings. I’d skip the video”}
Ya didn’t quote me completely. Ya left off the part where I wrote of incentives to encourage broader participation.
{The key words — you wrote “I’ DSKIP THE VIDEO” at then end of your rant about why you think they shouldnt be taped because of some imaginary conspiracy to take them to court. your own words}
When you only quote part and the part that suits you, you’re lying and that makes you a liar… and a very poor one at that
{St. Evelyn/Randy/Paul/whoever you are}
It’s just me… no one else
{Do you even live in our town? before you claimed to be from New Zealand. You’re a bad joke.}
You’re just breakin my heart.
Just did some research.
On March 18, 2009 , St. Eveln wote:
“It’s time for me to come clean…
I’m really an insomniac in Wellington, New Zealand… I just stumbled upon this site and thought, how bad can these commissioner be? And that solictor (I thought you folks called them lawyers?) he should have spur marks they way you ride his a**”
St. Evelyn’s own words when it first crawled here were that St. Evelyn was a random person from New Zealand who came here to defend the commissioner and solicitor (klineburger).
St. Evelyn is in my opinion apparenty just posting for Randy/Paul or Klineburger, or possibly could be one of them. They (Randy/Paul) can’t stand that the people of Haddon Township now have a forum for discussion.
Hopefully our next elected officials remember that they are there to serve the people.
Don’t you guys have a town to run? How bout you stop inventing internet boogeymen from New Zealand and work on fixing the sewers, stop the flooding, fix the theater, fix the poolhouse, repair the roads, and clean up DyDee?
Well let’s all breathe a collective sigh of relief cuz Sparky’s on the job!
“St. Evelyn is in my opinion apparenty just posting for Randy/Paul or Klineburger, or possibly could be one of them.”
I’ve said before, I’ll say it again… I don’t know them, I don’t talk to them. They don’t know me and they don’t talk to me. I work alone responding to the slime you and your sychophants post.
Sparky… (sounds like the name of Jimmy Olsen and Lassie’s love child… ) you keep working the case with your Karl Rove like analysis and maybe you’ll come up with a bone or two.
Once again you nicely demonstrate that all you can do is attack the citizens of Haddon Township that dare to ask for better and to expect more of their government.
Now you say that our posts and requests are slime?
Please. Do you even live in our town? If you do you should start being constructive or just go elsewhere for your giggles.
As the archives show, your sole mission is to monitor this blog and jump in and disrupt any attempt at conversation. You’ve succeeded again in this thread.
But your trick is up.
I went through the old posts and confirmed you have never contributed one idea here. All you have done is attack and defame — is that what Randy and Paul asked you to do?
I took the time to read your old posts to make certain before my conclusion.
You are a complete loser who monitors this blog and gets giggles trying to stir up a mess to disrupt all discourse.
I believe your statements that you don’t know Randy or Paul as much a I believe you that you live in New Zealand.
Come on, this is not what we voted for.
Go get yourself a MIlk-Bone and go calm down.
St. Eve – I appreciate yours posts. This is mainly because if anyone reads my posts and yours, mine actually have principle behind them. Yours… well let the readers judge for themselves.
One statement of fact to correct you. You wrote “BTW… I know food is not allowed, just like video taping is not allowed.” Well videotaping is in fact allowed.
Robert Tarus sued Pine Hill Borough when the stopped him from videoing a meeting.
In the opinion, Chief Justice James Zazzali of the New Jersey Supreme Court wrote that citizen-recording results in an “openness (that) reduces public corruption.”
“Openness is a hallmark of democracy — a sacred maxim of our government — and video is but a modern instrument in that evolving pursuit,” Zazzali wrote. “The use of modern technology to record and review the activities of public bodies should marshal pride in our open system of government, not muster suspicion against citizens who conduct the recording.”
Here is the entire Supreme Court opinion just so you don’t think I am picking and choosing.
Click to access 082106TarusBr.pdf
Now I know you are going to say “Well why don’t you go and tape the meetings yourself?” I will answer simply. If the town does it, it becomes part of the public record, it becomes OPRAable, and it shows and openness and willingness of our government officials which exceeds the minimum requirements of the law. Just because a law doesn’t require something, doesn’t mean that you cannot exceed it. If there is nothing to hide, and you have all the resources, do it. Don’t argue about it. It will build confidence in your constituents. They will be able to see government in action. I guess I don’t see the pitfalls and excuses for not doing it. You are entitled to your opinion, and I respectfully disagree with yours.
To the last poster, St. Eve subsequently admitted New Zealand was a joke. That being said, this forum really does bring up a lot of good issues. It clearly is read by the officials. Most recently, they don’t try to sit me down or live by the 5 minute rule. In fact, they should just abolish that rule, since they havent enforced it in many months. That would take an ordinance, one that I would stand up and wholeheartedly endorse.
he/she admitted it was a joke when he got caught in his web of double-speak. he/she appears to lack both integrity and character. it’s time to call st. evelyn on it and move on. it is transparent that st. evelyn is here on behalf of the commissioners to try to disrupt any public discourse.
let’s call it for what it is. If St. Evelyn wants to disrupt public discourse here on behalf of the commissioners it says a lot.
The best way to tell if an issue has legs : see if St. Evelyn jumps in sreaming to disrupt it.
Seriously — on every issue that St. Evelyn has tried to hijack time as shown the issues were real. Go back and read the archives it is very informative.
So we now know there may be something to the Audubon Park Police deal issue — otherwise they would not have allegedly dispatched St. Evelyn to monitor and disrupt the conversation.
Sparky! Sit! Stay!
Good Sparky
St. Evelyn.. is that an irish name?
“St. Eve – I appreciate yours posts. This is mainly because if anyone reads my posts and yours, mine actually have principle behind them. Yours… well let the readers judge for themselves”
I’m confident in the readers ability to discriminate among the posts, but thanks for the heads up.
“If the town does it, it becomes part of the public record, it becomes OPRAable, and it shows and openness and willingness of our government officials which exceeds the minimum requirements of the law. Just because a law doesn’t require something, doesn’t mean that you cannot exceed it.”
It’s a show. The latest thing. Nothing more. I don’t oppose video, but I see no return on the investment. You’ve said there is no investment because they already have staff, equimpment and an internet connection. I don’t agree. OPRA is a serious issue for government. Compliance isn’t an option (and for the record, it shouldn’t be) and it’s not free. There’s has to be more of plan than plug it in and roll. There are unintended consequences with every technology and I don’t think it’s irresponsible for a local government to know those consequences ahead of time especially in a community where members have demonstrated a willingness to take an administration to court.
But let’s go with the flow and say for the sake of argument video taping should be the rule… What’s next?
A Facebook Fan Page?
Maybe Linkedin?
A Twitter Account? For the town or each commissioner and department head
A MySpace page?
How about webcasting the meetings or better, hook up to GotoMeetings and everyone can posts questions in real time
Maybe pass an ordinance that every commissioner subscribe their cell phone to Google Latitude and then you can see if they’re having secret meetings.
This crap would never end. They were elected to govern not fill the void of every social media YOU deem necessary.
Tom I dont think the Mayor and Commissioners care whether you endorse anything they do. Your anti crusade has been old for some time now. Just listen and look—you have been alone for quite a while.
The only way you would could accurately make this statement is if you are a commissioner or the Mayor. This isn’t an “anti-crusade”, it is a open and transparent government crusade.
Oh, you don’t think the mayor and commmissioners care about any consitutents that are not in their campaign camp?
That is the problem. The mayor and commissioners should care about what all of their citizens think, not just what their fans think. They are the commissioners for all of us.
your post says it all
don’t you have a town to run?
So ANY dissent is automatically a commissioner?
Boy that’s some community you’re trying to build
no st. evelyn.
the anonymous person who showed up claiming to be outraged at the criticism of the commisioner and cowboys, lies about their origin, contributes not one single idea, and religiously monitors the blog to chime in on any criticism of the commisioners (every single time you are there waving their flag) — you are obviously either one of or acting on behalf of the commisioners or their solicitor.
game’s up bud move along or join in the discussion in a constructive manner.
any nobody said that ANY dissent is automatically the commissioner. I said that YOU are obviously either one of them or acting on their behalf.
don’t you have a town to run?
“don’t you have a town to run?”
No. I run a small business and family. That’s it
“I said that YOU are obviously either one of them or acting on their behalf”
If you’re as accurate about everything else as you are about that remark…. Well, enough said
I don’t think you can list “Teague/Dougherty Internet Czar” as a small business.
You are right about one thing — enough said.
You one-trick pony show is up.
You have about as much credibility as Randy Teague when he was confronted by the group of seniors at the meeting for allegedly going back on his word regarding the housing authority appointment.
To think that the mayor of our town could look those elderly women in the lie and continue to spout Teaguisms!! I was personally embarased for him.
“I don’t think you can list “Teague/Dougherty Internet Czar” as a small business.”
I guess you could, but that’s not the name of my company so why would I?
Did you know as a demographic, little old ladies commit more church fraud than any other group? It’s pointless, I know, but I think it highlights the pointlessnes of your remark… Just sayin
you are embarassing yourself and the commissioners with your act. don’t you guys have a town to run?
All the posts you have made over the months and not one constructive comment for the town.
This is not what you guys promised in your campaign.
I know, I know, you’ll say you never met Randy or Paul and just happened to show up, and you never met Rich Klineburger and you are just a simple small business owner with a fetishistic interest in Haddon Township’s blog.
Keep on trotting pony and ask Randy for a new trick.
Does Paul giggle on the phone when you call him?
Scroll to the bottom, read my last entry and demonstrate for all of us a “constructive original idea”.
This is your big break… Don’t blow it
I think we have established that you are not in a position to make demands here Mr. Doughe.. excuse me, I meant Mr.New Zealand.
Is St Evelyn an Irish Name?
Issues that have brought St. Evelyn out of the woodwork:
1) criticism of Klineburger’s alleged billing errors
2) discussion of lawsuit regarding alleged secret meetings and violationsof OPRA
3) discussion of alleged legal action pertaining to a contract the town just entered with Audubon Park
Amount of public discussion on the above issues at public meetings by our elected officials : 0
Newspaper articles written on above : at least one on each, numerous on item 2. (So real public issues)
Original ideas or constructive comments by St. Evelyn on above : 0
It is painfully obvious St. Evelyn exists to disrupt the one avenue of public discussion that is available for citizens to discuss the issues.
I hope everyone reading these blogs can click back through the old topics and see the drivel that St. Evelyn posts on behalf of its keepers.
Randy and Paul : is this how community thrives?
I hope the next administration will serve the interests of all citizens, strive for open government, and run in a professional manner. Is it too much to ask that Haddon Township move out of the 1970s?
“It is painfully obvious St. Evelyn exists to disrupt the one avenue of public discussion that is available for citizens to discuss the issues.”
I’m only a disruption because your goal is to create a literary hot tub for sychophants and I keep turning up the cold water and ruining your party.
What you hate most and can deal with least is an opposing view point
Keep posting you prove my point.
YOU don’t have a viewpoint. You just disrupt conversation. You have yet to offer a constructive original idea.
You are such a Randy Puppet that I can see Teague’s watch when you open your mouth.
Keep dancing St. Teaguelyn — we know your song.
Ask Randy and Paul for some new nouns out of their thesaurus — sychophants is getting old and your material is getting stale.
Here’s the original post that got me started. Review it and tell the audience exactly where the “constructive original idea” is.
————————————
As anyone heard about the lawsuit Audubon supposedly filed regarding the police deal between Audubon Park and Haddon Township?
Looks like wherever Randy and Paul go lawsuit trouble follows.
Good going guys. What happened to “where community thrives?”
We elected you guys to build bridges, not burn them.
What a mess!!!
—————————————-
It’s all yours… go ahead
keep dancing St. Teaguelyn.
You want to go full circle to the start? Not surprised given the eggs you have been laying since last march. How bout you go through the archives and share some of YOUR ideas with us, Mr. Dough.. errr I mean Mr. New Zealand
But to humor you so you have something to report back to Randy-
The point of anonymous’s post was :
If the allegations of Audubon are correct, and Randy and Paul entered into a contract with Audubon Park that violated any arbitration agreement of the exisiting contract, and we are spending taxpayer dollars already to build a substation when the legality of the contract is challenged — then in that case Paul and Randy once again didnt look before they leaped.
But you knew that was the point St. Evelyn. That is why you spend over a day arguing it. You just want to try to spin and spin because your one-trick show of Park-Teague poltics has been exposed.
I thought you were a blogger from New Zealand here to defend Klineburger? Or oh I thought you were some random person here to argue to defend Randy? No you are part of their little giggling gang of insiders who know the only way you can keep this train on the tracks is to eliminate any public discussion. Egg timers at meetings, police threats on critics, constant harassment on all fronts — it is the legacy of Randy Teague and Paul Dougherty.
The thought of a video camera at the meetings to record your guys antics is enough to send you into a tizzy.
Anonymous listed some issues for you above to offer an original idea on. You still haven’t. Anoymous is not surprised becuase you have offered nothing since you crawled on here last March with your Teague-Park politics of attack attack attack.
Well it took you 6 minutes to respond to last post with more of your one-trick pony show. Now that this post is up and your alarms are ringing call Randy and Paul and giggle about how you will smear us some more.
This is not what you guys promised us last campaign.
Does Paul giggle when you call him and tell him what new insults you threw at his constituents instead of constructively joining the dialogue?
It was nice how you smeared the senior ladys that stood up in public and challenged Teague on his untruths — very constructive of you. Why didn’t Paul have the character and integrity to say it to their faces when they were at the microphone? I guess he figured he has you to do it for him on the only public forum in this town.
You are a one trick pony.
“The point of anonymous’s post was :
If the allegations of Audubon are correct, and Randy and Paul entered into a contract with Audubon Park that violated any arbitration agreement of the exisiting contract, and we are spending taxpayer dollars already to build a substation when the legality of the contract is challenged — then in that case Paul and Randy once again didnt look before they leaped.”
I didn’t ask for the point. I asked for the “constructive original idea”.
I see nothing constructive. Nothing he wrote elevates the dialouge. It does the opposite. It assumes an error that hasn’t been proved and blames two commissioners (I thought there were three?) who did not prepare the RFP and were not responsible for it’s content. If entering an agreement creates a violation, it’s on Audobon Park, not HT.
If you have cell phone contract with AT&T that locks you in for two years and 18 months later you seek and accept an offer from Verizon, is Verizon at fault for any penalty? Any reasonable person would say, no. According to Anon’s logic (and I would assume yours) Verizon should have known better than to make an offer.
There is nothing original in his post. It was just more of the same crap of let’s find something, ANYTHING remotely tangental to an argument and these commissiors, then lets blow it up and blame them. Nothing in the article questioned HT’s approach or offer.
Finally, there was no idea.
Eleanor Roosevelt said great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss things and small minds discuss people.
Every response I’ve read (Cassel excepted) has come from a small minded individual and you sir, are their leader.
As for the rest of the crap you wrote, it’s just that and I’ll leave it there.
I have to go walk my pony.
you sure are defensive about this audubon park thing. almost more than with the klineburger issue.
Sorry St. Evelyn but you can’t change your feathers now. Your legacy is nicely recorded on the blog here going back to March when you first crawled here.
you are not in a position to make any demands. You are one trick pony and your trick has been called out.
You can smear, insult, and libel the citizens of the town that dare to ask for better, but when you do anonymous will call you on it.
anonymous has had enough of your trick mr. dough.. i mean Mr. New Zeal.., I mean Mr. St. Evelyn.
Is St. Evelyn an Irish name?
have some oats with your whine pony. maybe paul can paint some stripes on you can you can return next discussion thread as a zebra.
“You can smear, insult, and libel the citizens of the town that dare to ask for better, but when you do anonymous will call you on it.”
If your sychophants would ask for better, I’d be silent.
“Is St. Evelyn an Irish name? have some oats with your whine pony…”
It’s Irish Catholic… I see you’ve traded in your tin chapeau for a white sheet…. Nice
*Clip Clop* *Clip Clop*
St. Evelyn’s back!
Anonymous, on September 9th, 2009 at 8:45 pm Said:
“4 corners of the contract St. Evelyn.
Ask Randy and Paul what that means if you want to pretend not to understand.
We expect 2 people that ran as ‘professionals’ with their high-brown law degrees to understand the basic idea of contract law before jumping into one.”
I’m not a lawyer. Many of the people reading this blog are not lawyers. Since I don’t speak to Randy & Paul, I don’t have their numbers. So why don’t provide some level of utility and explain “4 corners of a contract?”
“you still haven’t shown what the big ‘lie’ was that you allege. so now you are libeling people?”
The Audobon police chief prepared an affadavit in support of a lawsuit. The affadavit expresses an opinion that public safety is compromised. Anon referenced this as a quote. That was mistake. Repeating it over and over after the mistake is observed makes it a lie. Him doing so makes him a liar. You want to characterize at a big lie? That’s up to you.
“Hope you can substantiate calling people liars on this third party publication bud. better call randy and paul. fast”
You don’t have the stones to follow up on a threat.
St. Evelyn
would you like anonymous to post the cell and home numbers of the commissioners and Klineburger so you can call them?
Sure. email them to me at M8R-fx47h@mailinator.com
I’m a little busy today, so I may not get to it.
Anonymous is here to help you St. Evelyn
Folks, here we have a fine example of St. Dough.. err Teagu.. err Evelyn’s one trick show.
Anonymous did not write what St. Evelyn alleges. Anonymous quoted the exact text of the retrospect article, and specifically described the affidavit submitted by the Audubon Police Chief.
St. Evelyn doesn’t like to discuss issues. St. Evelyn likes to put words in the mouths of others and then argue both sides of the argument.
St. Evelyn is just here to disrupt every single thead that tries to discuss issues. That is because this is the only available forum for public discussion in this town.
St. Evelyn you can’t change your feathers. You have been exposed as the shill for Randy and Paul that you are. Did you call Paul last night and did he giggle?
We believe you don’t know Randy and Paul and Rich as much as we believe you run a business and live in New Zealand.
You need to learn a new trick Pony. This one is played out.
Did you subconsiously chose the name Evelyn due to its similary etymology as Teague, Dougherty, and Foley? Quite a slip-up St. Evelyn. Anonymous doesn’t think you are so anonymous anymore.
Children, children children, we need to let the courts play out the Audubon/Audubon Park issues. We can write all we want, but at this point, it is up to the courts to see if we as a town will be engaged in this controversy. Right now, we just sit and wait. After it is settled, we can determine what the issues and cost are to Haddon Township if Audubon is successful. I will say affirmatively that I have not heard a single word of this issue discussed among the commissioners during any public meeting. It was also not in the minutes published of the private meeting. Again, let’s wait for the judge and see how it plays out.
St. Eve, you wrote: “Every response I’ve read (Cassel excepted) has come from a small minded individual and you sir, are their leader.”
First, thank you for excepting me. Second, I would agree with your assessment of the responses including YOURS, St. Eve.
ooooo, such cutting edge analysis. What a wit.
Did Audubon sue Haddon Township or not?
No. Audubon did not sue HT.
St. Eve – How do you know? Did you OPRA it? Did you check the court records? You said that with such authority. Are you privy to all of our lawsuits? What makes you so special all of a sudden.
Back to the real issue. We have committed our taxpayer funds, police department and courts to Audubon Park. If the judge rules in favor of Audubon, it doesn’t matter if we were served with a lawsuit or not. The question is whether if Audubon Park is required to move back service to Audubon, does Haddon Township have the ability to recoup what it has spent and outlaid as upfront costs? What happens to court fees and tickets? Obviously, we shouldn’t worry about it until and if it happens, but those are the kinds of issues that I hope they have addressed in the contract. Again, like I said in my prior post, let’s wait for the judge to decide if there is a mess to unravel and not jump the gun.
Yeah, OK, blah, blah, blah… Still, Audubon did not sue HT
Cassel—-“The question is whether if Audubon Park is required to move back service to Audubon, does Haddon Township have the ability to recoup what it has spent and outlaid as upfront costs?”
Wow you must believe your own BS, that is not the issue at all. That ship has sailed. Recoup costs? what costs? I am certain all these blogs are Cassel.
Anonymous directs attention to the police ‘substation’ that the paper says was allegedly purchased/constructed for use in the Audubon Park deal.
Anonymous wonders what staffing decisions were made in anticipation of absorbing the police responsibility of an additional town?
Anonymous wonders if Paul Dougherty did his due diligence on this matter? Paul Dougherty is in charge of policing issues: ths matter is his baby.
Anonymous is confident that time will resolve if this is indeed an issue. To feign that there is no potential problem here is disingenuous to the constituents you profess to represent.
Yeah, OK, blah, blah, blah… Still, Audubon did not sue HT
Your trick is old pony.
none of the original postes said audubon did sue HT. One of your anon buds (maybe randy or paul??) posted it and then your responded so once again you can try to argue with yourself.
Maybe if you ask nicely Paul can paint some new stripes on you and you can be a zebra next thread.
You cannot change your feathers St. Evelyn. Your legacy is nicely recorded on the blogs here.
You are obviously just a giggling buddy of Paul’s — did he call you yet today, and was he giggling?
If Paul is calling you, please tell him to hang up and focus on his law practice.
Oh Anon, you make some great points. They deserve great deliberation… especially when you deliver them in the third person… I like that… but at the end of the day…
Audubon did not sue HT
and the sky isn’t purple so what
keep dancing dough.. i mean st evelyn
That’s really funny. I only post with my name.
No costs? I guess you get what you pay for…..
Ok I actually have had enough of all of this repetition, acusations(sp?) and just non productive blogging.
This is directed toward St E and the anon people that are posting.
I didn’t think I would ever have to say this but stop acting like children. People don’t want to read the constant bickering. Different opinions, constructive arguments, etc are what this is for. Not constant name calling and bashing.
So you have fair warning that I will start deleting and possibly blocking persistent bloggers if this continues. I really don’t care at this point if it comes down to no one being able to post.
GROW UP!
This would have been useful 24 hours ago
Didn’t think I should have to do this at all!
No, you should have stepped in when it was apparrent the entiire intent was to demean and defame people who do their job. Not because they did it poorly but because they do it all and some people just don’t like them.
You stood by the whole time. So don’t go holding your head so high as if your above it all.
Your not.
It was really nice knowing you and glad you could get your frustrations out on MY blog. Maybe while you are blocked for awhile you can think of something constructive for a change.
Good bye St Eve
A message from my little sister, Evelyn…
“You block me, you block the ONLY consistent opposing viewpoint. Block me and no one else? Speaks volumes about YOUR blog.
you never articulated one original idea
you simply attacked cassel and anyone else that dared to ask a question or pose an idea
it’s all there in black and white archived nicely for you to read going back to march
A message from my little sister, Evelyn…
“Sawchuck? What, banishment only works for my side? It doesn’t apply to all my playmates? I guess this is now The Peoples Republic of HT and you’re the Minister of Propoganda”
You will also be blocked for a while. No reason to just keep this going.
The blocked reply was actually directed to anon
Sawchuk
Stop sniffing jello and just admit you are an anti——you failed to mention you will delete Tommy without any reason why—–please delete me because I have no more usless comments than anon Tom……LOL
Haddon Township beware! When Sawchuk starts blocking posts this is what you will get when Cassel runs for office. Sawchuk, you would be good in Iran blocking messages of Freedom on Twitter or Facebook. How appropriate on the day before 9-11 you start blocking messages.
you guys are unbelievable
she’s left all of your attack posts against her up.
she told St. Evelyn to stop being disruptive or he couldn’t keep posting the same silliness over and over and over. nobody removed his posts. all of you are still posting your hateful speech and she’s leaving it up there.
just give it a rest and let the people have a discussion on issues without being dougherty’d every 2 minutes
After all that has been said and allowed I finally put a stop to bashing, name calling and constantly repeating the same over and over.
I’m guessing some of you will never be happy.
First off, ummmm, it is my blog and have allowed much more than I should have. If you want to continue the mindless chatter, start one of your own.
This is supposed to be constructive and as fact based as possible. Name calling and bashing is not in that description.
I knew there would be some that would criticize what I was doing but that’s your nature and I expected it. Anything you can talk negative about you will.
There have been many good things that have happened in this town and some have been posted. Why not turn over a new leaf and give some positive things for a change. Who knows, you may actually like it.
Wow. What a silly comment. How cynical for you to say that I, the one resident who has done more for this town to bring attention to Open Meetings and Open Records requirements, am being accused of wanting to block free and open speech. Do you remember the day that the mayor shouted me down when I attempted to read a statement into the public record and threatened the police on me? Now that is actual censorship caused directly by Mayor Teague against me.
And to bring 9-11 into the fold is even sillier. If you know anything about me, on 9-11, I was personally working with a company which had 600 people on two floorsof the WTC and was actively working on accounting for every single person there. Fortunately everyone got out safely but it took 4 days to locate everyone. Perhaps you should apologize for that ridiculous comment.
My sister, Evelyn, in exile offers this reply…
“If you’re true to yourself, you’ll call for my reinstatement and condemn blocking any poster”
Again repeats, copy and pastes, false accusations(if I know different) will be deleted and poster will be blocked
How can you know its false Sawchuk—you do not know
First off I said “if I know”, Second, I know who posts anon and who posts with their name.
I let this one go thru to show that you continue to argue instead of going with the topic of post.
I have a question for the residents of Haddon Township – has anyone just taken a camera, set up a tripod, “volunteered” the time to video tape the commissioners meetings recently? Possibly, there is someone who would be able to start this process. The meetings were video taped, in the past, under the Township of Haddon (when Mr Dennis St John was in town) and then they stopped (the reason they stated then – no individual available to tape the meetings). I believe it is important for the “young adults” (example, seniors in high school) to learn about their town government. Would that not be a good project for the high school students? I will now just express my opinion – the intention of this site, I understood, was to inform the people – too much is be “written” – it would be better to just “state the facts” and “ignore the comments” – citizens have to know the facts and let them make their own conclusions. Just as a follow up – is there any new information on the HTAA club house and are the bathrooms available, at this time, at that facility?
If it is better to just state the facts why did you just give your opinion?
And what’s up with all the quotation marks on everything?